Sonia Boyce
they'd always sung it always some kind of on their own. So she came in to kind of help them do something exploratory together. You don't have to make a beautiful sound. what was gonna happen? Because they didn't have to perform the expectations of being female singers. They could go somewhere else if they chose in that session and the music industry in terms of women is that they've got to make a beautiful sound in order to have a career. They've got to look a particular way. They've got a sound a particular way. Now, when I'm asked to be photographed in the studio when I'm working, I am in dirty jeans. I'm in a snow I mean sweat gear, one to keep warm to can get dirty. Three, I don't know, you know, moving around the studio, it's comfortable. It's comfortable. I'm not wearing high heels. I'm not wearing a ball gown. And I don't want to really be photographed as if I'm walking into some ball but the idea of being in whether it's a fashion magazine or whether it's a kind of lifestyle magazine is that I've got to get someone's got to dress me up. And I just kind of hit what is wrong with the fact that I'm coming into a space where I work, dressed for work. Enjoy the work to be photographed. Why do I have to look I cannot work in.
Maya Bailey
That's definitely a juxtaposition. Really, isn't that just
Sonia Boyce
two opposites? But it's to do with the expectation of looking and being glamorous in the context of the magazine. And it's like well,
Bolanle Tajudeen
what about being glamorous like for free? Have you in the context of the art world at large?
Aarony Bailey
is like really sad like I don't It's not none of us really glamorous apart from the end product, like the final show the dinner to talk about the final show. The drinks after the final show. It's it's the whole process. None of that is glamorous in terms of aesthetically or just being in that mindset of creating work. Like it's, it's stressful. It's time consuming. It drains your energy like it's not a glamorous process. But yeah, I feel like the art world tries to make it seem like it all is. Especially for women like you. I feel like there's this idea of the troubled artist and like wherever and it's with with men I feel like it's a bit more acceptable for them to kind of
Maya Bailey
be gritty be Yeah, turn up with like, dirty jeans and the big cool and they be edgy
Aarony Bailey
and then for a woman to do that. Almost feels like she's making a statement or like she's trying to go against something like she's a feminist. You know, I mean, like, in my head, I always think about like Tracy Eben, for example, and how like, just you know, being a bit of a mess. I mean, it is a feminist statement, but it's not just that that is just who she is. And that's her work and stuff like that. And I hate that. If we are messy as women and not glamorous, it's it's people trying to figure that out and it's just I was there to figure out I was just what I do. This is my work. This is how I work like It's like opposite
Maya Bailey
for me. I feel like I have to be presentable to be taken. I know it sounds very, like sexist, but I do have to look a certain way to get people to respect me.
Bolanle Tajudeen
But I actually am PR columns.
Maya Bailey
Yeah, I wish I felt Yeah, I wish I you know, do I wish no not really but I wish it was the option for me to turn up in joggers and a hoodie and no bra. But I know that's not typical attire for what I need to do. So it's very much more about how I look. And I like kind of like it's kind of siren kind of energy, where I love the men before I looked like and then I'm like, how, like, leather helps explain it. But people I've noticed that people don't take me as seriously with makeup on or without makeup. On. They have to be like, physically attracted to me. Do not mean for them to take me seriously which is a bloody you know, awful thing to think about but it's it's true still.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Do you remember when they are like started turning up to all the catwalks and the shows and the after parties because she wasn't getting any active book bookings. So she started turning up to all the parties and getting on the Best Dressed List. And I remember reading that and I never used to get him back. It's another private refusal dinners and you remember I just started dressing up to private view and just taking wild pictures and paste them on Instagram. And then more invitations were coming in. I was just like this industry is weird.
Maya Bailey
Yeah, let's face professional, which is weird because it should be so meaningful. Because people are literally some people literally put in their hearts to be criticised by the whole world. Do you think that it'll be less technical than it is but
Sonia Boyce
because there's I can't remember what the documentary is. But there's a documentary coming out of the meeting. Movement in terms of Hollywood and one of the actresses I can't remember who it was, was basically saying women actors get parts because producers or someone who's deciding about the film fancies them.
Maya Bailey
That makes sense.
Sonia Boyce
Yeah, and that's not and what that does is it undermines an actor's understanding of what their skill set is. Because that's not they're not being judged on the skills that they have as an actor. They're being judged on whether someone who's deciding who's in the film thinks they're attractive. And I'm sure that's I mean, of course, that's that's the case for some male actors. You don't get the lead parts. That kind of seems like it kind of unilateral, for female actors that you've got to be attractive in this particular way.
Maya Bailey
There's there's a lot more quirky looking men than it was poking looking women to know me, like Russa actor from the bear. I
Aarony Bailey
don't know his name, but he's also an Seamus.
Maya Bailey
Yeah, he looks very quirky. He's not conventionally attractive, but women love him. Because, you know, he's not the buff superhero look, whereas I don't
Bolanle Tajudeen
Jeremy Helen white
Maya Bailey
Yeah, yeah.
Sonia Boyce
But for me this is this is kind of the it's adjacent to the work, all of that stuff. I mean, yeah, we have to kind of be aware of all of that. But it's adjacent to the work because there is real work that's going on. It's like how do we get to talk about the real work was going on, if we're having to constantly be kind of filtered through this other. So this is probably why I stopped you and said, You know what we need to be why do we have to do a glamorous film shoot. What Why can't we do one is just kind of interesting. About the space that we're in and we're sitting here and, you know, what's here in the studio space and how we're, how we're sat and just, you know, a series of just documentary images of what's going on and they can be beautiful. to
Bolanle Tajudeen
true. You're right. I think it was this like, some voice from the platform I've had. And there was two ways to remember we discussed that RNA, taking photos in the home and then just being very natural. And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, maybe it needs to be a bit more Grando because it's like Sanjar and
when we think about your, your, your work spans 3040 4040 decades, and you know, you've had this I think you've had consistent buzz, actually, I don't think it's I think you've had the Venice but you were the first black woman acquired by the Tate. So you've had this consistent, sort of Trailblazer Trailblazer trajectory. And so, you know, as a black own platform, I also wanted to be able not to say compete with the gracias and there's birds and stuff, but I want to be able to present you in that film in that in that through that lens. But the truth is, if it is about them, I agree with you. I don't need to do all of that. I can we can can be very natural. I can go buy a film camera and give it to everybody right now which I will go and do something I should have put it on my way in.
Maya Bailey
I was gonna say you got you always you always carry a camera.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yeah, so maybe we can take some photos around the studio just before you buy. Yeah, it's it's this wanting to what is the right tone for what you're presenting to the audience and how should it look? Should it be this kind of, but thank you because it's like it again, actually even what you said affirms my work that sometimes less is more, and it doesn't need to be for the artists who read in the black Lawson's journal. It's more important for them to see us very much in our natural state. And you know, one thing you're all in black, so that works. You know, in my head, I wanted it to be all white and flowy. And this is actually I prefer it like this because this is the more natural state of being an artist and who we are and all of that so. But
Maya Bailey
I don't own anything white. So that would have been interesting to us fashionista.
Bolanle Tajudeen
So, I've got questions for Erin Mar. As because you know your daughters have not just one artist but to so as a daughter of artists, what have been some of the advantages and challenges of growing up in a creative household.
Aarony Bailey
An advantage in my opinion is kind of being given the confidence to kind of do whatever you want, and knowing that like and being able to think in whatever way you want to think being allowed to challenge ideas and thoughts of people being allowed to be curious. I feel like that's, that was quite I feel very privileged to have had that in my childhood. Like anytime I'd like do anything, would always give a suggestion. Why don't you do this? Like I don't have like Teddy's and she'd be like, Why do you take pictures of them? Why don't you record them? What do you make a story with? If I liked eating something, why didn't you make it? Why don't you learn how to make that like just constantly thinking of possibilities and not just letting my mind stop somewhere thinking beyond what I know. And same goes for my dad as well, just letting just being given freedom I guess. I feel it's very specific to like artists. So I'm very grateful for that. Very grateful.
Maya Bailey
I think their capacity to have banter one minute and then have a deep cultural conversation and next, like the back and forth is like quite hilarious in the sense for quite intense. Like we would have like normal like family, like jokes, making fun of my dad. And then like next minute talking about you know, what does it mean to be you know, conceptual artists. What does it mean to talk about cultural theory in an understandable way? And because I think because I grew up around Stuart Hall, Paul Gilroy, Reimer
Bolanle Tajudeen
godparents,
Maya Bailey
not I wish, no shoot who was kind of like my granddad and for guessing uncle in the sense, I would like, put on him like, kind of, but you're just being surrounded by that and not knowing that I'm absorbing it. Because I think I said this so many times, but I didn't know what my parents did. I didn't know what their friends did. I thought that this partied? Was it like I just thought they went over to each other's houses and drank wine at Commerce, and that's just what they did. It's only when I started to go to college. And then university when I realised like I knew the people they were talking about, I think, yeah, you'd like to say that when I first properly, um, study Stuart Hall. I had to call my mom and be like, what? What's going on? And like, I remember I picked up a pathology and I realised I knew like 90% of the names on that. And I was like, This is really weird. This is really Yeah, and just also just knowing there is black artists, and black creatives. And just I never again at uni, there was like, maybe because I was an art campus, there was like probably 10 people of colour black people, and five of them were on my course. So you know, it was not as diverse as it should have been. But I remember this is when you did the overhead of a black artists kind of documentary. And I remember standing outside the lecture hall, no sudden, like, from the people about this, and someone was like, Why? Why do you need that? Like, why is that important as like, Can you name me for five black artists? Because they were like, oh, no, I was like, well, that's why we need it. That's why you need to be informed because yeah, yeah.
Bolanle Tajudeen
And how does that feel about for use on your hearing, like you obviously went to art school yourself, and thinking about, say 20 years later, your daughter's in our school? Pretty much having the same conversations? What, what kind of changes have you seen in lack of change as well? It's been both just
Sonia Boyce
I mean, for my own self, you know, when I was studying at the end of the 70s, and into the 80s, it was, you know, I didn't I didn't know of any black artists, artists of colour, until I went to an exhibition in Mountain 1982 or 81. That was 81. And was like, really shocked, shocked at the word, and then shocked that I didn't know and then going to a conference 92 and go into the auditorium, and there's over 200 that people, but coming from another country who are artists and thinking How did I not know this? And of course, I recognise that within whether it's whether it's an art school, whether it's in the wider kind of cultural, creative sphere, that there is a, an unconscious system of amnesia. And it's structural. If you don't hire anyone use of colour. If you don't teach anyone within the classes, if there's no resources in the libraries, if there's no in terms of programmes, the whole doesn't consider, then how will people know if it's not part of the general cultural knowledge? How will people know? And so, I know I now know that lots of people historically have been doing that work. It's just that there is a overall system structural system that emerges it disappears. We forget, it emerges. It disappears. We forget that this is a cycle. But there are people who have cottoned on to that structure and had been working to ensure that there is legacy legacy legacy and that it's passed on and also working, working in those in sorry, I feel that I speak and keep on going. There are people who are working institutionally to keep the memory legacy to kind of change the structure so that keep that legacy prominent. So for instance, I am going to just very quickly speak about a research project that was done at the slate, science lead almost 10 years ago, actually. And it was about Bloomsbury, in London. And people may know about the balloons research, kind of turn of the century very much kind of artists bohemian, they lived around rosary but they also have a house somewhere else outside of London. And they are seen as the kind of quintessential British smallness. This research that was happening at the Slade was about the presence of black people as models for the blues reset between the interwar years between 1913 and 1919. Now when we talk about backup, we we go to the 1980s Or we might get to the Windrush generation, but actually, there's a generation before then and possibly before then. So it's like there's all these little instances of there being bits of research, and we're getting closer and closer to being able to do a timeline. And that is what's needed for the generation that's emerging to know that they're not reinventing the wheel.
Bolanle Tajudeen
You know, I was talking to my friend, she's a graphic designer, and she was like, every day is have you ever had a heavy where all the black graphic designers and she's what we're here, and she was like, you know, at fast when she left art school because she went to art school as well. She was that she felt that those questions were really useful, but she's like, No, and now it feels like actually there are a lot of black graphic designers. It's insulting. It's insulting. But it's like people like you said, there's this amnesia. And I've always said that I'm like, It's not that the work hasn't been done. No one's around in the institution to remember it. Because if one person leaves that institution, and that work hasn't been spread out across all the teams, and it's just not a natural way for the institution to work. Of course, the information is gone, right. So I do think it's important we have this timeline and what's important is that it becomes like a set of part of public consciousness consciousness. So it's like Picasso, for example, or, you know, it's just like, oh, yeah, I know that but you don't even know where it comes from. It's just in your memory. And I guess, you know, the freelance Foundation is doing all of this thing around how we start to teach black art within schools. And I think that's the first step.
Sonia Boyce
I'm gonna mention somebody to vote for girls, that we went we went to Paris in 2019 to see a show called The Black model, but model and Western art, which was curated by art historian Courtney's morale. Denise here, the Monet exhibition, and the model that's in Olympia that no one talks about. They mentioned that it's black model, but they
Bolanle Tajudeen
they always referenced the cat rather than the model
Sonia Boyce
than the model and this was the beginning of her journey into and so she she does, like really deep history in terms of that whole neighbourhood of, of, of Paris, that Laura, who's the model, and who modelled for several of those kind of big, modernist names in terms of French painters in the 19th century, and that there's a whole community basically there of kind of francophone Caribbean community there. And so she's gone and done that really deep knowledge, because she sat in an art history class, where someone was talking about Manet and realise Oh, hold on this. There's there's two women in this painting. Why are they talking about the model that is limpia and not talking about this other? This other prominent figure that why is that why is that person not even named? So you mentioned Picasa. But going back further than Picasa? Is this a question of someone like Manny, that there was a whole community of people that will not only living and working in Paris, but that were models for these artists? And so you know, so she's doing that deep historical work, but there are people doing these, these these, these these things? We need we need that.
Bolanle Tajudeen
It's just about making it as accessible as possible.
Sonia Boyce
So her book, which was her thesis sold out within a year. Yeah, I think you can't get any more
Bolanle Tajudeen
it's out of print. I have it. Someone I remember. It should be here. I have that book or someone sent it to me. I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I don't believe I've got this book. So it's not good anymore. It's
Sonia Boyce
happening. But the three of us went to the exhibition last day.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Do you have the book?
Sonia Boyce
Yeah, somewhere in my
Maya Bailey
collection of
Bolanle Tajudeen
I have the book. Thank you for reminding me I have that book because I actually need to find the book. If it's not here. It's definitely at home go down who may have already know certain books I didn't put her out and that would have been one of them is probably in my books is that homework could be down there for sure.
Maya Bailey
And there's a one there's always a demand, like daddy's show. Like in Ireland. I was talking to Erica Bolton who does the PR for tape and she was like, this is the most Sadhak show. Probably take Britain's history and that she even she wanted it to be extended and she doesn't understand why it wasn't extended. Because but people I think they didn't think people will turn up. Always thinks that minutes. Yeah, it's like the Black Panther thing. You know, they don't didn't give us a black superhero because they didn't think we wanted it. We needed it. But then we all came out and showed that actually you know we are we want representation no matter how big or small. So like Hallmark films. Me my mom I don't know I really like them. But me remember love Hallmark films. But they're all the same premise. It's just always the same story with the same white actors. I want some black ones, you know, I want the same black ones like I see
Bolanle Tajudeen
what I watch. And this is why I'm Tyler Perry. They're trash. Yeah. They're all black. Like sometimes I watch it on my ran. I have watched four episodes and he actually does have white actors Funny enough, but it's just yeah,
Maya Bailey
it's just nice to see. I think there's a there's a kind of not stereotype but kind of thought process that whatever we do has to be great. It has been amazing. And not more than one person can do that thing. I think it's those two thought processes. And firstly doesn't need to be great. It can just be good. Or it could be rubbish. It's just, it is what it is. And I feel like the fact that we can't have more than one person. I can't really why people have made a podcast is like how many I can name at least five from the top of my head. But we can't have more than one black woman talking about popular culture. Do you not mean there's a sort of attachment? And kind of I don't know
Bolanle Tajudeen
if I'm making sense. No, you aren't making sense. Talking about big issues here within the black community.
Maya Bailey
But it's true though, is it's kind of a gatekeeping but why we gatekeeping our own culture or why we like allowing the gatekeeping like thought processes from allows expand. I hate gatekeeping not that case gate down. I just don't see the purpose of it. No one really wins from it.
Bolanle Tajudeen
As like your incomes and like how have you encountered gatekeeping in the media or the communications landscape? You know, say you go to Cosmo days, whatever, whatever big art publication. Let's keep it to art publications actually. So you go to art review. Art newspaper, do you ever find that? There's this sort of, because I guess the journalists and editors are the gatekeepers of showcasing works to write the public's how have you found those like managing those relationships
Maya Bailey
I feel like I do look explaining why it's important to have more black people in our in that kind of sector work and I feel like am I can pass up in like, we need them because of this and this and this. And this This was like a constant conversation I'm having with institutions. Because like I can read a press release. I know who read it instantly. And within the first sentence I'm like, Okay, well I know who wrote this. I mean, that wouldn't happen if we had people from the culture writing about things to my Pacific things that the artwork is talking about, you know, not every work. It's about slavery. Shocker. I know.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Don't say sure.
Maya Bailey
But shocking enough. It's like did you go to solos show in JW. Anderson?
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yes. Were you there? I went for I went for like 10 minutes. Why did they connected to see free?
Maya Bailey
Well, you did little speeches. And so Salah was like you know, I want I wanted to pay our joy, love black love, you know, lesbian love things that we don't usually see portrayed. Tell me why. The next person who was also talking was like, yes, the blue represents the transatlantic slave trade. This that the other and when I when I when I say that we all went because someone said I don't want this to be about our pain. I don't want this to be about a struggle would be about love. And for the next person to immediately take it there. Within the first sentence. Interesting. We all went.
Bolanle Tajudeen
That's such an interesting take. This is random, very random,
Maya Bailey
and it's like you can't can't associate black people who have been happy mess What is thinking let's that's what it is like, says to me, I have no idea have answered your question correctly or not.
Bolanle Tajudeen
But it's just the conversation at this point. I will make it into a q&a of some sort. I do have a question for you Sonya. Around motherhood, say as a mother and a renowned artist. Have you been able to balance the demands of raising a family with pursuing a successful career in the arts? I
Maya Bailey
can quickly say we just had this conversation before in Paris. When we went to have that dinner that never ended.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Like this, the never ending dinner,
Maya Bailey
that little entrees
Sonia Boyce
tasting menu.
Maya Bailey
It just never ended. But we did have this conversation.
Sonia Boyce
What did we say? I don't remember. I mean to tell me what we said.
Maya Bailey
Maybe I'm just saying that we have had this conversation before. So it'd be interesting to see if it lines up
Bolanle Tajudeen
to say the question again. No, no, no.
Sonia Boyce
I mean, that's I think there's a lot I think there are lots of things about so when I when I was first pregnant with with Matt, lots of lots of people asked me whether I was going to make work about motherhood. And I said, why and then I and then my response after a while I was like, Oh, are you gonna answer David, about making work about fatherhood? Because I kind of thought, well why am I being asked that question, Why am I being asked whether my work is going to be a costume? To do so kind of so closely linked with something that's quite intimate. For me, being a mother is quite an intimate thing. Having children is quite an intimate thing. But then being a parent. There's more than there's there's analogues. There's been more than one person in parenting. There's been me there's been David there's been my my mom. has been David's parents. There's been aunties has been cousins has been and we've been incredibly lucky. Because I know that this is not necessarily a straightforward case, particularly in London. That in order for myself and for David to work we we absolutely relied on family in order for David to go to work. So you know that both girls at different points because there's kind of eight years difference between them. would spend so many days that my mom's men so many days at David's parents so that we could go to work or we could get work done. So in terms of being a mum and managing it's not been it's not I'm not some kind of Amazonian woman who can do you know who can be this kind of do everything that we in order to try and make it work. We we really were incredibly dependent on the extended family unit to keep things possible. So for a while, my sister is slightly younger than me. She her younger son would come in the morning and Kelsey and Anthony would go to school we do breakfast and I'd take them to school or David would take them to school or granddad would come really a morning to take them to school or my mom, Nan would come to Tim Scott. You know, there's this we kind of found a way to work out a system that relied on the family to make it possible. So there wasn't that there's just no it wasn't that wasn't a single parent or that my mom was a single parent. That we really did rely on family to do to make the logistics, the logistics of it work. But I was often being asked more about my role and about the shared role, which is what it was, it was a shared roll. I you know, it was my contract. You could say with David that he was going to be present and he really wanted to be present. He said take the both to meetings on his back on his front lawn. He sent me everywhere, that good galleries that go to meetings, they'd be like he he'd be taking them wherever he was going to work strapped to him. So this is how it is that this is how it was possible. But that was a no we talked through this to say, well, this is what the deal will will have to be if we're going to get anything done because we would we would at certain point we were dirt poor. We couldn't afford having we couldn't afford having Hatton as a housekeeper and child. We did get to the point where we had childminder but literally what I was learning this was when we were running the African Asian visual artists archive what what I was only at that or when I was teaching was just paying for childcare after school to be picked up from school, which is why I've often been had a job alongside being an artist is because there's an economic thing as well as how we're going to make this work. But it has been a partnership. And that was an agreement that we we've made to each other that okay, how are we going to do this? And we really did rely very much on parents, grandparents, cousins, that kind of funding system. My mom having my mom and my sister moving closer to where we were in South London, so that we could have some kind of ecosystem that could keep these things going. That wasn't no, that wasn't because we didn't have lots of money to just pay somebody. So that's literally how it worked. And your second question was about being an artist. No. And then the question has been about being another, you know, we think that I and had been quite a neurotic mother and you will hear very quietly Laughter My children when you talk about I recognise I'm completely neurotic at times as a mother to the point of possible absolute frustration to the rest of the household. But that's because that's, that is the I think that's just the animal instinct that comes with motherhood.
Bolanle Tajudeen
And how have you dealt with this?
Maya Bailey
So we were talking, getting that font, we were talking how we mean already picked up, not by parents at school. And I think I struggled with that because I associated associated that with my parents not loving me, and that sounds very dramatic. But again, I was like 10, so everything's very dramatic to me, but just doing something Yeah, not picking me up after school when I see everybody else's parents doing it. And I'll be picked up by a child minder. I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah, just like, I mean, I love some time at my grandparents house, like it was one of my favourite times, but it's just, I would see them sometimes more than I would see my parents. And it's just a bit like, Oh, okay.
Aarony Bailey
Yeah, it was they kind of kept on reaffirming this idea that like, our house was a normal, like, growing up with artists as parents like having random stuff in the house random pieces of work in the house, loads of books. Going to a meeting on a Saturday and sort of being with friends and being picked up by by my granddad because my parents were like, had an exhibition and and going to an exhibition on a Friday night instead of being at a sleepover and stuff like that, like kind of just, I built this image in my head of like, yeah, like with this isn't normal. Like and when you're a child, that's where you want to be you want to fit in and you want to be normal. And I think it's something the older I've gotten, the more I'm so like, appreciative of having that kind of upbringing and I can kind of I understand it.
Maya Bailey
Yeah. Yeah, I understand my mom's my parents perspectives a lot more. But it's funny for me because I thought we were completely normal. Really, I thought, yeah, it's normal to get to take on a Thursday run down that hill. That's just normal. It's normal to you know, go to a talk or be in a conference. And then it's when I was like, oh, you know, what do you do Thursday night, and I'm like, oh, no, displayed at home. I was like, Do you not just go out? And they'd be like, No, Mayor, that is very weird. And that's when I started to be like, Oh, maybe it's weird, but I kind of like the weird I kind of enjoyed it a bit. So it's reverse I think, yeah, I wasn't aware of how non normal we were. To me I thought it was because I obviously you just when you're younger, you assume everyone lives the same life as you, between me other people. And you're like, oh, okay, maybe, maybe we all don't let the same kind of life
Aarony Bailey
but I feel like we've had opposites. But we've been opposites in this kind of situation. Just in general. Like I remember we were speaking about how for you, it felt kind of isolating. Because growing up, you didn't have many people or friends who were in a similar position to you of having parents who are artists. And I felt like I was a bit more lucky and having people my age like family, friends who had kids who were my age and growing up with them and having someone to relate to in terms of like, okay, we're in the same position like your mom does the same thing that my mom does isn't there's so much stuff in the house and stuff like that. And I feel like me and mafia. Like
Maya Bailey
there's I don't think because there's Ali is, cream has rubber. It's just not like we didn't I didn't have that community around me. I just thought it was like unsaid we just once did that. This is how life is meant to be. I think you guys were more out and be like, Oh, this happens to you that haven't seen Do we just on a same level that oh, this is just this is just our lives. Yeah, you know, like,
Aarony Bailey
and I feel like it's nice that leave me and there have had each other through this process of like, just little things like hearing that. We have to go to an exhibition and like we have to buy an outfit like some opening and just me and may I just having kind of like shared experience like I feel like has helped a lot and like having someone to kind of relate to and understand when like if there's some deadline that mom or dad has to like, do like knowing that the House will be very tense the next week or two and you may or understanding
Unknown Speaker
having to feed my mom, making sure that you know, there's like just like normal things like no chopping some washings done, because that your life should not just be about being parents. You know, I mean, you should have a very rich cultural life. You shouldn't just be like artists, or your mom like life. The Venn diagram is a circle. Like, I think we're talking about how you wanted us to realise that we could have the live stream one
Sonia Boyce
so this this, I'm remembering now a conversation. So when both of them that at around the same age but obviously at different times. would say I would say to me, oh other moms can pick their kids up from school. And I get really frustrated by this and say we'll end the conversation then. involved that what I really wanted both of these daughters to, to get to grips with is that they they could they could have a life, that of their choosing and that not what is set out what they perceive to be set out for them. But actually, that that they could have careers. And in order to have careers you have to go to work. And in order to get work, it may mean that you have to juggle that space between picking kids up from school and being the kind of model mum or that there's another way to be there's other ways to be a mum. And that that's really that's but it's the wider society that's putting that pressure on what is a mum and what's mum supposed to look like and what's mom's supposed to do and what is a good mom and what's a good man and what's a bad man and we get a lot of pressure about being a good enough mom from we're just told that constantly. And so
Bolanle Tajudeen
you know, I'm
Sonia Boyce
remembering, particularly conversations without Aarony about or recognising with with irony that our house did not look like other people's houses for our house. was a mess. It was a mess of just stuff whereas other family homes might be well ordered. Quite clear. You know that. The dining table is just for eating. There may be a vase of flowers, but everything else is just sitting and eating at the table. Whereas our table it's called piles of letters and books and bits of equipment and we've got an and also a vase of flowers and also you know that all that you know that there is that there is a the boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff. And that stuff is stuff that's going to be used for work in some way, shape or form Whereas you might go to your mates family's house, and they're all within the boxes and everything's got a place and it all looks very nice and it's all you know, if you've ever studio, I've heard studios all the time, but but it's really I find it really difficult to separate separate studio work home thing and they think they they blend sometimes to my and everybody's detriment
Bolanle Tajudeen
if you come to my house and I remember that's all saying oh, if the books not here it's and what I've got like 10 boxes in my room. And I haven't been coming to the studio so I've been working from home and so my home now becomes a studio I have is dropped off artwork over here on my house. I've got frames I should have bought these frames in because they're just sitting in my house. And I really like what you're talking about about not being able your mom not being able to pick you up. That's that my daughter star. I was. I had started at 19 I was I've got to get back to it. I don't know how I'm gonna do this Mother's thing. But one thing I'm not I wasn't that I didn't feel comfortable. I think I already felt like a failure having a child quite young. And so there wasn't I wouldn't need to go to uni and having to LCC and I remember like staying to do my grad school I was I really struggled academically, so it will take me a lot longer to like get my mindset or to do an essay so I'd still be in the library at midnight. My daughter has been picked up by the childminder, free fair he was also my army who at times was okay with the fact that I talked with him she prefers or my mom who's a nurse with picking her up on the way back from her lecture. And I'd like to be honest, my whole family just used to custom that cannot organise so that neurotically like my brain couldn't quite and I still find it hard now for my brain to like. This is motherhood This is work this is like to me it's like this. I'll just rather brilliant together. There was a point once that was really do you know you're coming to all the shows and exhibitions over me because no one's sort of asking you because they don't know if I'm gonna get back because I'm like at this show until this time that I'm trying to go to library to finish this essay. So do you know what let's go now she's a bit older. She's got some, you know maybe a year and a half ago. Come to the studio with me. That's your day off cotton lashes out now I'm gonna go to Grand state.
Sonia Boyce
So up until two years ago, I had to drag these two new would come with me I would come more readily. Thank you literally. He was like, don't just pitch my name. But sometimes you were like, Oh, do we have to Yeah, you know, it's like, literally I would say yes, you're coming. I've got to go to this thing. Yes, you'll come in, or no, but you can't stay at home on your own.
Maya Bailey
And nobody says so. Right? Yeah.
Bolanle Tajudeen
That was like before one o'clock you better be at your nines. That's what I said to her. I was like you're not stealing yesterday. Absolutely. You saw me She don't get it her eyebrows like she was bored. And I went into a room and I was like, Where were your eyebrows gone? And then before I left the house today, she was talking about Yeah, I'm trying to bleach my eyebrows because I can't bleach my hair. And I was just thinking do you know what I'm not even you know he makes funny because I always remember my mom saying this to me when I was younger. Like if your boards you're gonna do a lot of things are meant to be doing. And it's only because I can't be bothered to do you know, what is your eyebrows in it? You're the one who's gonna learn how to do a little pencil. It's up to you. Yeah, but leaving stuff in the house is a risk and how good like her I think when sounds really bad and maybe it was because of Instagram. When she was younger it was very Instagrammable so that you know we've got to show to go see Star calm I take pictures of her it now. I can't take it she doesn't allow me to take a picture of her and put it online and she's like that I haven't consented to that you know she'll use this very flowery language to me that I would use to her
but I do say like I see it from all points of use because when you put into a talk about not having grown up in a small household or going to conferences that will start childhood to play.
Maya Bailey
I've got I've got two things one, our children I'm going to start a community just just for us to have like a support group. Now something is needed to be said I've got generations upon generations. I got elderly people I got young people, I've got babies, it's gonna be a thing, but also not leaving your child in the house. My granddad. My granddad loved us so much to the point you let us do anything. Anything we wanted. So it's one day I'm playing Sims in my room. I come downstairs, I'm like, What's going on here? I'm gonna You must have been like, three, three. And I was like, What's going on here? It's like we're tidying up. And I was like, Okay, go back upstairs. Next No one's home. And she's like, you but you lost that because they're, they will turn up books. They will turn up. bills don't turn up. They will turn up everything. So much
Sonia Boyce
know to clear up because they've had enough of the mess. literally tore up books literally tore up
Bolanle Tajudeen
are you able to love it?
Sonia Boyce
I actually Chuck's going down out the house.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yeah, it would have been season ending.
Maya Bailey
And like, I understand why you wouldn't leave your child in the house. I think another time when they let you do the washing. He did. Yeah, I was sick.
Aarony Bailey
And he let me stand in the chair barefoot with all
Sonia Boyce
the dishes. She was three, three. I come home honestly the table reading the newspaper like you don't pressure aren't you standing on a chair
Aarony Bailey
drenched in water
Sonia Boyce
deep in saucepan bigger than
she wanted to do the washing up. And I'm like
Maya Bailey
can I just say that he was a school kid? Like me? Yeah.
Sonia Boyce
Oh, John. So if she said that she wanted to swing from the chandeliers. We don't have any. Would you just let her like
Maya Bailey
but probably yes, he would. He would.
Bolanle Tajudeen
But isn't. You know, it's interesting because you talk about being your parents being able to like letting you do all of these things that you wanted. And then you've got this like very relaxed liberal Caribbean. Granddad. That's right. I feel like this has had a really positive influence as well. Yeah. to your mom. frustration
because you know what I, although I'm not present. So I've got I grew up in care for a little bit. I've got foster sisters, they've also got children. And they if they send their kids to me, I'm not making your kid's life but your kids can do so like I have a bit of bad flair as well. I'm just like, yeah, and do you spend life they want to experiment or make slime more? I tried to be quiet. Now. I'm a bit more that can you know.
Maya Bailey
This reminds me of an irony. You said to these weird funky experiments. Yeah, just the wildest words. I never come downstairs. And I was like, What is that smell? She was making what cars
Aarony Bailey
making Caravelle because if you boil Coke, it turns into parallel, but I left it for two minutes.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Star told me that she was ready to eat dog food as a YouTube challenge. Right? I lost. I was like what everyone else's dog food she was like yeah, let's just go shop. I'm gonna record myself. I was like, I'm gonna go to prison
I don't know what liberal hippie thing you think we've got going on? There's a limit. Right? There's a limit to how people are going to perceive me. Right? And I'm not doing it for views. But like, yeah. Do you want it to eat? on YouTube? I couldn't believe it. I was like wow. You could even ask me. I felt happy that she could ask because obviously she felt a bit shut. Yeah, she thought I was gonna say yes. I was like, no, no, I'm gonna go Christen. I don't know what you probably could eat is
Sonia Boyce
one of the things that I constantly say, I always call out all social services might have to come and get me if you do that.
Maya Bailey
outgrown age, like at 28
Sonia Boyce
Literally, yeah. I'm sure I'm surprised you guys don't have a spine as a speed dial to social services. Because I mentioned social services. Social Services can't really there will be some trouble.
Bolanle Tajudeen
I might start I can't win. She's just like wow. And
Maya Bailey
this is why I think we need to community Greg just as children just to be like,
Sonia Boyce
it's true. It's my my, the logical bit of my brain says, Yeah, it's true because then you Yeah, it's part of being a child is seeing where the edges of things are. And experimenting, going into the Interland wherever that Interland might be. But there is also sorry, there are limits as well.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yeah, I think the limits are always cultural as well. I think that not eating dog cannot be unusual. I'm saying big public. She's showing me these advocate and I was like so there's a big difference between you and Ben. Yeah.
Sonia Boyce
Someone who knows who those children are and they're calling social
Bolanle Tajudeen
like, yeah, exactly. You don't know. Mike. That's the truth. You know, you can see it on YouTube. They get a lot of views they're getting on the laws, but I'm sure their parents are having a conversation with their school teacher. Right and like, Okay, what's going on, you know, is this a really healthy environment to bring up a child and but yeah, children do you push that limit? I can see this one's been the the limit pusher. I think.
Maya Bailey
It was like limit pusher.
Sonia Boyce
answer that question for for now. There's something else
Aarony Bailey
was made. Or was it a question? I was I think such a that was. That's why
Maya Bailey
one is
Aarony Bailey
coming home and just having Oh, my septum first. Coming home just having my septum 16
Bolanle Tajudeen
Oh, how did you get that writing?
Aarony Bailey
Okay, I think it was 1515 or 16. And then coming home and having these
Bolanle Tajudeen
you know, as my was obviously older assets different did you feel okay. Do you know what get you have you seen that? Have you seen your mom back been of the way he's got the sceptic PSA, not the meme the video Nigeria boy. So he goes into the kitchen
Maya Bailey
and this is off his parents. No, no, it's
Bolanle Tajudeen
his mom. Have you been TQ because obviously she's freaking on my son's gay because he's got whether she starts talking in Europe or when she's even more hilarious but obviously there's nothing wrong being quick or quick, but like it was just the way she reacted to it. It's like if you're Nigerian it's funny so
Maya Bailey
yeah, yeah, happy. No, it's really funny. I am That's the funniest I
Bolanle Tajudeen
Was it because of the age or do you think at any age with those because you didn't have no persons? Actually.
Sonia Boyce
When I was 16 I Okay, I got to my mom. She said
Aarony Bailey
yes. I think it was me. I just did it.
Sonia Boyce
Both of just
Maya Bailey
but to be fair, and
Sonia Boyce
there's not only piercings, no, no. Not the tattoos.
Maya Bailey
Okay, so I got my nose pierced when I was in Liverpool my dad because he had to do something. And I was like, Dad, I'm gonna get my nose pierced. He was like, go for it baby. Go love that for you. Got it pierced was talking to him like for like, two hours after go done. I have not noticed. That sounds different about my face. He was like, No, and I was like I Pearson died. He was like, Oh, cool. Let's get on you came home. Almost come down the stairs and it's like you got your nose pierced. Second seconds. On your birthday. Can we go to dinner? And my tattoos is not even showing that much. And she was like looking for and she was like you got tattoos? I was like, Yeah.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Please. Like this is really interesting to hear. You're not a fan of tattoos and piercings being an artist. Oh my god. Really not a fan. Yeah, she does.
Aarony Bailey
She has like some very specific limits. Yeah.
Sonia Boyce
It involves pain.
Maya Bailey
She's on someone who can inflict pain to ourselves.
Sonia Boyce
No, it looks like it's painful. Someone has to put something through through their skin. She's
Maya Bailey
worried about the pain. Oh, don't argue that.
Bolanle Tajudeen
It's not like because she doesn't like them personally in the process. Even your big 28 years of age
Maya Bailey
she's still like why did you do that?
Bolanle Tajudeen
You couldn't get any more persons. You don't need to tell me Okay. Why don't you go with them?
Aarony Bailey
We could Yeah, machine tattoo.
Maya Bailey
Oh boy, that could be quite cute. Was at whenever we moved. We lived in America for a bit and I had to get injections done. The way my mom had believed that room. I think you're crying when he's
Sonia Boyce
crying. before they've even done the injections. That's okay.
Maya Bailey
But that's how sensitive she is. To our pain. Just the idea of it makes up
Aarony Bailey
like a visceral thing like it like
Bolanle Tajudeen
that's so that's an innate muffled like, do you feel that pain? Yeah. So I have to leave the room.
Sonia Boyce
So I can't understand what any willingly choose like what you're doing. So no, I'm not I'm not gonna go Oh.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Is there a person that you didn't buy from them?
Sonia Boyce
I mean, they were right. I mean there
Bolanle Tajudeen
is for them. As baby my mom
Maya Bailey
refused to do that. We didn't have we didn't have the say of it. We didn't have consent. We can not consent as a baby to get is person therefore my mom wasn't willing to do it.
Bolanle Tajudeen
So what he did here is
Aarony Bailey
I don't mind quite late like a teen
Bolanle Tajudeen
most of it is
Maya Bailey
I don't have I don't have any other persons that were no piercing didn't even bother. Don't even bother my ears. Makes you cranky. You know? You know me you know that I don't have my ears pierced but if you give me earrings, I'm not calling your friends. Have
Bolanle Tajudeen
you ever Yeah. I took start today get her second LPFM because she kept on asking and I thought if I don't do with her it's okay to Claire's. She's gonna go do it herself. And then I went to her parents evening and her teachers I stopped you know you're not allowed to school you always. I was like starting you never told me and then she told me she was like, well, this still needs to be healed. And I guess she still has her earrings to school. She refuses to take them off. Respect I'm just like, whatever at this point with her, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna come home one day and she's going to have the nose and the belly button and the bleached eyebrows and the tongue. The tap. Like I'm trying to convince her not to get tattoos because I just really don't like them. And she's like, it's definitely happening. That way if I get mom and I'm like, why would you need to get mum that you don't actually need that I'm not there. To get mom even if I didn't die like you don't. But you've got enough pictures of me. Everyone's kind of got on my machine. I mean, like you don't need that in a tattoo form. To
Maya Bailey
be fair I got one of my I got my star constellation done and it was got Pisces does pretty is pretty it but it also got Pisces done and guess what? Guess what sideline Pisces is a fish. No who has the Pisces?
Bolanle Tajudeen
Your Pisces as well. It's your birthday.
Sonia Boyce
I just had my birthday and birthdays but
Maya Bailey
25 But I'm coming to your thing for the 24th
Bolanle Tajudeen
Okay, I'm gonna have a cake for you. It makes us gluten free. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that. Time. Okay. Because I've got two more questions. There's one about intergenerational conversations.
Maya Bailey
Oh, spicy
Bolanle Tajudeen
Spicy.
Maya Bailey
QUESTION We do this with
Bolanle Tajudeen
I want to do every year.
Maya Bailey
No marks about my dad would you for Father's Day was Did you like that? No, I just I just thought he loved me. Yeah, I literally thought
Bolanle Tajudeen
so. The whole because I was talking to Jess for ICF and I was like, oh, maybe we should do the photoshoot and ICF to reference your dad as a way to like be like to bring him into the conversation but we could have a follow up for Father's Day.
Maya Bailey
be upset that we left him out.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Okay, sorry. Ken did it. Oh, I just had a question. Can you talk about the importance of intergenerational dialogue and learning in the arts and how this has played out in your relationship with each other?
Maya Bailey
Very briefly, this is a very tidbits kind of story I used to work at you still do work at Central Saint Martin's. But this is the one that is being harboured in the chambers right because right and then he came back home one day, and just like, Man, this is new time called emo. And I was like, I have no idea what we're talking about them. Absolutely no doubt, obviously a couple months later, I knew email was but it's the fact that you could pick up what the what your students were saying and kind of like, take on like, yeah, that's looked a bit
Bolanle Tajudeen
presented to you. Yeah.
Aarony Bailey
I found it's been really important like having like parents who are artists and having family friends who are in the art world and like being able to have conversations, not just about the arts, but just kind of generationally, like what the changes have been in London and the London art scene and stuff like that kind of learning from them, but also expanding how things have changed and how they're new challenges or, or how things have been easier and stuff like that. And, and similarly to like, you know, growing up with like having my mom and my dad it's, I feel very privileged to have such good, close connections with people who are from the generation before me and before that, and before that. I was saying to my mom, like I'm doing a film festival and like it's I had three artists in mind who filmmakers who I wanted to be a part of it and they just also happen to be black and women, and they didn't even cross my mind until I had written it down. And and for that just kneeling going out of my way to do that. That was just something that naturally came to me the first few people that came to my head like I I feel like that is a product of me being able to have me being in those environments being able to Yeah, yeah. All the people who came before me and to have conversations with those people and the reason why the reason why those artists are involved in the festival, where I want them to be they're not involved yet I want them to be involved in the festival is because they have are having conversations with younger people. And understanding what is it you guys are interested in? What is it you want from us as artists and what do you want us to explore? And I feel like they're doing quite a good job of listening to us and, and kind of trying to understand what our struggle is now as as we kind of live in this digital I don't want to say like this digital kind of environmentally conscious age, because I feel like that's a new ice term you just use but I feel like it's a new thing that we're having to think about now. That I guess wasn't as big of a conversation in generations before. And it's it's it's yeah, it's it feels, I guess nice to be listened to and to be respected by other generations because that's the only way we will make change and move forward. And I'm quite a big advocate for that, in my opinion.
Maya Bailey
I just I to I find it. Well, this is the first time I knew that people needed to have into like intergenerational conversations is when obviously you met freeze two years ago. And I don't always have a sense of people who want to meet my mom whenever we go out. And we go into like a like a, maybe an exhibition or freeze. And they'd be like, someone like really shy and be like your boys were blind. It's like, you're gonna meet her. She's She's She's She's literally she's a normal person and I think that you put people on a pedestal not realising that they also put other people on pedestals, so I know you like Colette Johnson. I know that I know that you like a lot, but could I also want to get connected to you? It's not like it's not a one way street. It's a two way street but I feel like people don't realise is a two way street. So like, obviously once you're presented the opportunity, you're going to take it and then once you know person more, you realise the similarities what are the differences and like the pedestal becomes more of a level playing field.
Bolanle Tajudeen
And I think that's where you come in with condoms. And that's what I'm so excited about. I don't know why I think you should open your own agency.
Maya Bailey
I know exactly what's gonna happen. Because I'm failing. I
Bolanle Tajudeen
think like a comms are all around a social media comms agency from you would be chefs kisses and I think it's something that's very much needed right now. Yeah. And it's really exciting to see taken up. Like I think we as young black women in the arts have are taken up space in many different different parts of the art sector. And I think comms is like one of the sort of not last, it's not the last one but it's one that is definitely needed in the UK and like the miss the Fae in this relationship that people have repressed and artists then. So like I said, like the gatekeepers before you know and how we approach them and I just think you'd be fantastic here,
Maya Bailey
but also I was thinking, okay, there are a lot more black and brown people in front of the camera, or is like behind the camera and then was watching some sort of like roundtable with like, actors and like, you know, warm creativity in front of the cameras. But they're not like juicers or black camo women and black. Like, just like the community behind the scenes is not as prominent as is in front of the screen. I'm very much behind the scenes person. I'm a comfortable distance. From making art while still being in the art world. Like it's up for debate. It's my favourite, but there must there are some debates of whether I consider myself an artist. I don't really I don't really think I am I have a practice photography. That's my natural or filmmaking. I think maybe they'll look at me like that's not funny.
Bolanle Tajudeen
I'm funny. How has it been? It feels weird. Even me quitting something I want to prefix. How does it feel for you to have two younger daughters and how has that kind of helped your intergenerational understanding of young people and what they think and obviously you have worked in universities with young people consistently so what is it like being around this like, new iMac I want to say mentioned talent, but younger voices and that differences of opinion to for example, Sony and not to go off on a tangent I had a lunch with Paul Goodwin and we were talking about the RX wrestler, and Keith Piper responding to it and I said, you know, I just want them to paint over it and like, brush it away or whatever, I don't care. And Ford said, that's the difference between our generation and your generation. We want to recontextualize it compared to just bashing it away. He could be in the minority here. But it was just more like how our generations like get rid of it like it's racist, paint it over whatever that but you know, so what are just going off on a tangent sorry. But what is the importance of like this intergenerational dialogue for you?
Sonia Boyce
I think it's really I think it's actually quite useful to think, to think intergenerationally one because it requires listening. And actually, the thing is really hard for me to do. We think we listen. We hear somebody but we don't necessarily listen to it. So I think it's really important for everybody, not just the older to the younger, but the younger to the older and those who are no longer here, but we still can kind of hear them. We started this conversation you talked about Alice Walker and inside of her mother's garden book where she's retrieving Zora Neale Hurston so I think it's really important for us to understand what what each generation is trying to do or has the character of each generation in a very generalised way but the character of each generation but it's also important for us to listen so that we don't miss recognise. So one of sorry, I'm so used to teaching going into like many lectures so you have to please bear with me. I am reminded of this was a tape written that was a conference about the work of Aubrey Williams and I've got a guy Brett was giving a talk about the work of Aubrey Williams already Williams was part of that kind of post war generation of artists that came to the UK and then his career really took off here in the UK studied here. He's from Guyana, and British primarily came my generation when we were younger. If you look at all these paintings, they're quite abstract, semi abstract, and semi representational and our generation had kind of dismissed abstraction as kind of indulgent, not not dealing with the pertinent issues of the day. And then so years later, at this talk, and guide Brett is talking about the works of Warby Williams, and he's talking about the rainforest. And he's talking about ecology. And he's talking about the destruction of the land in those paintings. And it's like the subject matter in this work that had been just gone over my head. So I'm hearing irony our talking about the environment. And in the 1950s, Aubrey Williams is talking about the rainforests which we know if you if you if you pay attention to what's been happening, Brazil in one in one instance, and that the almost wholesale destruction of the lungs of the planet and only Williams in the 1950s is talking about this through particular means in terms of abstraction, and thinking, my generation were really kind of not listening to the what, what he was talking about, because we'd already assigned him to a particular place and not actually listening to where those connections might be and what that might mean for us and the future. So for me this question about being able to kind of characterise the generation is really important, but it's really been important to listen and hear okay, what is it that's been talked about here? And what does that actually mean? And what would it mean, to
Bolanle Tajudeen
paint over
Sonia Boyce
that mural, that typewritten and what would it mean to topple the Colston statue? That kind of is slightly the same in different and do we fully understand what costume meant? Do we fully understand the language of how racism is constructed? Visually? If we get rid of it, what happens? What do we need to do first? It's kind of chicken and egg. Do we need to do both? So I just I think it's really important to hear the arguments. And we can only do that if we are in dialogue. To hear the arguments and up to a bone and more than both sides. I'm not saying one's right or one's wrong. I'm just saying, Okay, can we hear? Can we are we prepared to listen first of all, and not not? What's your word? Within that, I think that there is and this is something that I often think about in terms of both of the girls but also your generation and the generations that have come since the 80s The 80s consumed like this mono this how'd you get over it? How'd you get through it hurry to get round it? If you've got something you want to say because it just stares you as this kind of Monolith is like, is it something that you have to knock down in order to get through? Or is there something is it possible to say Yeah, that happens isn't that we're doing this to make sense that there is that regeneration, it can now feel like a competition to get to get past that. Or to take it with oneself to take it with the generation is I mean I don't have an answer for this. I'm just saying that the the end in some in some way. Sorry. My brain is just you know, one of the So this morning I was sitting in the can in the cafe downstairs and may rise. And I start to tell her about what I think is kind of professional development. How if in this sort of scenario, things, procedures that might be useful for everybody. But before I speak, and she's going in, in an unknown, because it's the relationship between mother who's this authority figure and child who's who's trying to say
Maya Bailey
what they will.
Sonia Boyce
What not what they think I'm going to say what she thinks I'm going to say, to say no, no, I've got something to say. And already there's this kind of power dynamic going on between Yeah, no your authority, but I got something to say too. And I had to say stop. Let me tell you what I'm going to say. And then let's hear blitz here, but that dynamic is constant between the mother and the daughters. I am this authority figure. Not what about what what is it that I'm saying? But it's like, oh, I'm having to fight the authority. That's a dynamic that is constantly going on with us. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it is a thing and how you recognise it and then how you try and think through it and figure out okay, what do we do now? So for me, you know, my generation is seen as this kind of monolith. What do we do? It's important because actually, there is there is one concede legacy was much generation didn't know there was legacy to be seen. What do we do now? It's really interesting. Wait, no one. No. One of the things that I've been hearing quite a lot from both of you, but mainly from there in the last couple of years, is ancestors keep hearing this word ancestors and thinking when did this become a thing? Ancestors is really off see something that's occupying the mind of this your generation
Bolanle Tajudeen
and I think that's why I wanted to reference in our mother's gardens. I actually wanted to ask you like, was your mom an artist? What was your relationship like with your mother? Did becoming an artist? Very much thinking about she's holding them up? And also what was your grandmother doing? You know,
Maya Bailey
I think about my ancestors all the time, and my mom doesn't. It's constantly my writing and I think it's not interesting. It's also propped up by the note coming through me and ancestry.com and just having access to know who your fifth great, great, great, great, great grandfather was, what he looked like what he sounded like, like it have that knowledge accessible to us. Well, I don't think it was so easily accessible to the previous generation. Like, my granddad told me stuff that he didn't tell his kids now, I mean, but now I know it and I'm probably going to pass on to my kids. But it's the fact that it kind of jumped.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yeah, my mom star knows more about my family. It's kind of history and legacy than I do. And I don't know if that's the relationship between grandparent and grandchild. I do think that's a very different relationship. I think it's way more relaxed. There's not a lot of parenting going on. And I feel like they know when you're a parent, you're you're just so worried about getting your child to adulthood and that they can be a human being. I mean, keeping them alive. Whereas grandparents have that they're gonna be fine but I'm what was your last question? What was your relationship like with your mother and like, how did you tell her in the seven E's young black, which I don't know if she was arrested in but how did you let heading that way? And he was heading that way. My nan my Nana was not happy. Yeah. How did you how did you tell us rest? Ah. And then how did you like tell her like yo, I'm going to art school.
Sonia Boyce
So my relationship with my mom and also there's five kids, my mom become single parent with five kids, which is one point she had two jobs, both intense jobs, one as a nurse during different shifts and the other doing dressmaking. piecework, so she had two jobs, five kids, one household so that, you know, there was a lot going on. And she really felt to me like she was an authority figure. Like she was the law. And, and I was wayward in many ways. In many, many, many ways. I was waivers. We were wayward in our own way, but I was wayward. I was. I was the weird one. Within my family. It was kind of accepted. Anyways, yeah.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Where did you fall into the family? On the fourth? Okay, Baby Metal.
Sonia Boyce
I was always thought of as the baby because I was worried would
Bolanle Tajudeen
shrink and grow
Sonia Boyce
so I was 15. I have said this before, when my art teacher, Mrs. Franklin, who used to live here and travelling by the comment, but she taught in counting town. I went to school counter said that I needed to go to art school. And so she's gonna let us know. And as far as my mum and her generation concerned, if your school teacher says this, you say this. School teacher school is the law. So whether she was happy about it or not, my teacher said that I should go to art school. So I will go to art school, because she didn't know what I meant. So I was going to art school one day a week and in then I mean she was concerned because I don't know what this means but so she then the agreement was that I would do what she saw as a backup. Do office practice at school as one of the the your choices of what your lesson is going to be and one of the magnitude was office practice for which I got an E not not an F, but maybe I kind of fit maybe I kind of worked out. Okay, you need to be can't fail this. Yeah, you're not going to excel in
Bolanle Tajudeen
the E was the
Sonia Boyce
was the just the borderline of always fair, but I got that that's an application. So for her it was like okay, so you kinda need to earn some money. I don't know what this art businesses none of my family know what this whole business thing is.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Did you even know what the idea
Sonia Boyce
was? And I kind of just thought you'd have a job. So I've always had a job I've been I've been, you know, as of my generation, you know, from the age of 11. I used to babysit and then I used to work in the shops and then I didn't you know, you always have a job where you have some regular money coming in. And then you can do that and then you can do your art stuff. 4045 years later, 145 days I'm still I've still on that track of I've got to have a job. And then I can do this art stuff on the side for all that all the other stuff that happened when in the lion, whatever, you have a job so you can pay your bills. And then you do the art stuff on the side because unless the art stuff is paying your bills, you don't have a job. So you know that's very much my, my mum's. She's incredibly. She was incredible with money. She was incredible with trying to figure out the pragmatic, practical things. How you get by from day one to day two, because at the end of the day, you don't want to be living on the street. And you got to eat something. So if you didn't get up, you go to work, and you've got a job that's paying your bills. So she's very my relationship with her was always about thinking about the practical things. It's only in later years that I realise how funny she was she was hilarious, but I didn't. When I was growing up. I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't hear her being as funny and as smart and as resourceful as she was.
Bolanle Tajudeen
But she was also created a quintessential as a dressmaker
Sonia Boyce
to dressmaker was able to
Maya Bailey
say if she had the opportunity. She'd had the opportunity
Sonia Boyce
if she if she'd grown up in my time. She would have gone to she would have been a fashion designer. She was honestly she makes us make us kids the most ridiculous clothes because there was always cloth in the house bags or cloth because you're doing peace work at home. So we say what work peace work. So basically, you're paid by the paint by the weight of clothes that you make. Okay, so we slip just a Brick Lane. And so they were granted, this isn't the 60s, there were a number of what it used to be called the RAD trader and there may be all these cloth clothing factories and basically she had a sewing machine at home and she would be making garments and however many out there was the weight of the garments that she would get paid by the how many garments she could make within a space of an hour or whatever. So she'd come home from having done a shift at night shift at the hospital, General Hospital and my chapel and then she would be on the sewing machine making as many holes as you can in order to make ends meet. And it really wasn't, you know, so for her it's like the getting that House working. While she was out she was you know she never picked us up. We picked up each other from the school. We came home and made her own lunch. We we had to make dinner as well. So yeah, at the age of 11 I was I just have to family dinner. We all we had to run our own household household. All the kids were looking after their kids running their household doing cleaning, doing shopping and all that because she was working two jobs to keep it all going so this idea of work and go to work was probably my my kind of kicked off about the idea of being diverse in the studio. And it's like that sense of having a work ethic or something that she always really survived by the fact. And if you're going to get somewhere you needed to kind of go and work for it.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Do you not your grandma did
Sonia Boyce
say my grandmother who lived in 204 I first met my grandmother when I was 27 because my grandmother never left Barbados. She was funny. She was very funny. And and so I mean this conversation about intergenerational. And the question about ancestors and stuff and David and I've talked about this quite often because we grew up without in the daily sense, a relationship with their grandparents. For us, they're these kind of almost these mythic beings. So, but my grandmother she she, to probably this is 10 miles from top to bottom. And she used to work as selling fish in the market. And she would go to wanting to collect the fish really early in the morning. by by by 10 o'clock. In that morning she was selling fish in the market. So she was always up really early. And she worked every day and I remember her telling me that she had about five or six children. That literally the day after giving birth, she was back at work. Now, I couldn't I couldn't walk the day after giving birth to even if these two
Bolanle Tajudeen
were not built that that no more. I feel like I don't I don't want to say that. What women were able to do back then our bodies can't do the same actually. Which I find.
Maya Bailey
Yeah, my grandma my Nan has like 10 siblings 10 I want to be honest.
Sonia Boyce
So you know that but for me, my grandmother is you know, I met her a couple of times. So that sense of having kind of lived connection is it's mythic than then. A daily a daily sense of a person.
Maya Bailey
Yeah, that's how I feel about our great grandparents. So my dad's great mom, great grandma. That's just one photograph. Yeah, it's like mythical. I thought when I first saw her, I thought when you get older your hair turns purple, cuz she had a purple rinse. But I didn't know what peppermint was until my mom explained it to me. But you know, it's this kind of like, narrative behind of your grandparents, or people in your life that you just don't know. And I feel that very strongly about my great grandma. My fine dad's mom, like all them like paternal matriarch. Yeah. I feel very like they're all very strong, physically and mentally. Very strong. I just don't know. Enough about them.
Bolanle Tajudeen
And is that something you want to explore?
Maya Bailey
I wish I could ask my grandparents about that. What their what their parents were like. I felt like I was I was getting into it, but I wasn't quite. It wasn't my biggest concern at the time, you know? I mean, I did ask questions, because I love asking the question, but
Sonia Boyce
my mom didn't get on with her mom. They never got off. So for her it wasn't a big thing to come to the UK because they just didn't go
Bolanle Tajudeen
for that that wound has been held. See? Is there is like, I felt the love like I felt the authority, the law. I feel like these cities have been there. I feel like you've been an artist as well. Maybe in this like creative industries, is helps you deal with the fact that your children are doing what they want. When you don't want them to make just that healing like it feels like a
Maya Bailey
autonomy of autonomy of our own bodies. Yeah, existence.
Bolanle Tajudeen
And the fact that you want them to like you no idea when you spoke about you want them to know they can go off and do anything that they want to want to do. And that hard work ethic that's been instilled in us delivering both of them but all of these sort of how parents are it all starts to come together from your grandmother, to even handle getting on with her grandma and like her mom, and how that made her work harder for you to have that work ethic for you to give to them and then they're gonna share it and it's just a really beautiful, lovely summer. Say thank you so much for the hospitality. Oh, I forgot to buy June
Yeah, yeah. Well, you will. I think one you should take some photos here.
Sonia Boyce
You can be in the photos.
Bolanle Tajudeen
I'll be in one of them. I wish I wore black. I thought I'm gonna put on my black jacket. I thought I look odd. I'll take one for
Maya Bailey
a new interview out there. So you have to stand out. No, you'll fit in.
Bolanle Tajudeen
Yeah, come back for a second cream and brown.
Maya Bailey
I'm upset that I was actually went back No, but
Bolanle Tajudeen
I love it. It feels it fit.
Sonia Boyce
Me is these two are going on at me. Can you just get another colour to work?
Bolanle Tajudeen
So should we do? Well, I wouldn't go to where your old teacher used to be.
Sonia Boyce
I didn't know where I was kind of Adelaide so I'm made to work with I patted her hair into the hair of witches Richard Thomas. And we did that project here. There you got seen that it's called
Bolanle Tajudeen
the one badass opera. Because it cost me
Sonia Boyce
two figures. I don't work as a photographer photography work, but this is probably online somewhere. I saw that piece like other day in an old
Maya Bailey
to meetings
Bolanle Tajudeen
yeah
Maya Bailey
but you enjoy it.
Aarony Bailey
I live on lift theory
Bolanle Tajudeen
or I do love across one. It's really bad. I need to upgrade the conversation overnight. In minutes and I didn't realise